religious but not spiritual

[hermionesviolin]

My best friend and I were talking on Saturday about last Wednesday's controversial UCC "devotional." [Edit for those who don't follow me on facebook (where I have commented in various threads, including one of my own) {edit2: or who missed my earlier complaint}: I have basically all of anger at this piece. /warning]

She mentioned that people have commented, "Nobody would say they were 'religious but not spiritual,'" to which she was like, "Uh..."

I said, "I am totally 'religious but not spiritual.'" I don't "experience" in worship. I have a strong commitment to Christianity, and I make a commitment to attend communal services (though I don't tend to think of this latter one as a conscious choice, such a creature of habit am I), but my commitment has always been and continues to be a primarily intellectual one.

My best friend commented that she has committed to a set of practices, including communal worship, which frequently do not result in spiritual experience, so the "spiritual but not religious" person might come across as saying, "Hey, I have spiritual experiences all the time, all by myself," which might be experienced negatively by someone for whom spiritual experiences are rare.

Whereas my reaction is more like, "Oh, that's nice for you that you so easily have these experiences which I don't have any strong desire to have" (there's an asexuality analogy here somewhere).

Comments

[sigrun.livejournal.com]

Thanks for bringing this up! After reading what you linked, my curiosity got the better of me and I Googled to find some reactions. I ended up with thoughts. Mostly that if I ever feel like wandering back to Christianity, it has to be with a UU church. I wouldn't feel safe anywhere else.

And then I wondered about the dichotomy of SBNRs who self-identify as Christian vs. SBNRs who self-identify either as a practitioner of something else or nothing at all. When Daniel disparaged Christians who find God in a sunset, that really struck a nerve with me because I equate nature with the divine-- is it really so unusual to find a/the Creator in His/Her creation?

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

> if I ever feel like wandering back to Christianity, it has to be with a UU church. I wouldn't feel safe anywhere else.

*makes very sad face* I so want for churches to be safe places...

I'd done a lot of my complaining about the piece in various facebook threads already, so I didn't repeat much of that in this entry, but perhaps that would have been a good idea. One of my big problems with Daniel's piece is that I feel like "Christians" like her are a big reason why so many people reject Christianity. My primary response to her piece was, "I'm not that mean and *I'm* too mean to be a pastor." (I have basically all of the anger at Lillian Daniel's piece. Her co-authored book on ministry has been on my To Read list for a while, but I have such a bad taste in my mouth re: her now.)

One non-fail response (from an ordained minister, even) to Daniel's piece is http://pambg.blogspot.com/2011/09/spiritual-but-not-religious-bring-it-on.html

[Edit: Another non-fail response, this one from someone in the ordination process: http://jamesmichaeljoiner.com/2011/08/31/on-religious-boredom-or-do-you-wear-your-collar-in-the-airport/ ]

> When Daniel disparaged Christians who find God in a sunset, that really struck a nerve with me because I equate nature with the divine-- is it really so unusual to find a/the Creator in His/Her creation?

I think Daniel thinks the Divine IS present in nature -- see the second sentence of "How lucky we are to have these geniuses inform us that God is in nature. As if we don’t hear that in the psalms, the creation stories and throughout our deep tradition."

I think her problem is with people saying, "I find the Divine in nature -- something you clearly have never thought of, what with your institutionalized religion -- oh, and have I mentioned how I do this all myself; you with your foolish need for community."

I posted this entry ["religious but not spiritual"] to facebook as well (with non-lj links) and one of my church friends commented: "Very interesting thoughts. I tend to think there is a thoughtful way to mean "spiritual but not religious" (I-have-problems-with-organized-religion-but-still-engage-in-a-valuable-array-of-individual-and-communal-spiritual-practices), and a number of unthoughtful ways (I-don't-like dealing-with other-people-or-having-obligations-to-them, I-like-sunsets-not-fighting-poverty). The world is a mix of the thoughtful and unthoughtful ways, and the unthoughtful can grate."

[paper-crystals.livejournal.com]

I consider myself religious but not spiritual. I wouldn't call myself very religious at all but my identity with Judaism is a religious one not a spiritual one.

[marginaliana]

A random thought: me being a spiritual but not religious person, it seems to me that the things you value about your religious experience are the things that are most difficult for me to value and/or wish to experience. So I think I get the asexuality analogy, but from the opposite side.

My best friend commented that she has committed to a set of practices, including communal worship, which frequently do not result in spiritual experience, so the "spiritual but not religious" person might come across as saying, "Hey, I have spiritual experiences all the time, all by myself," which might be experienced negatively by someone for whom spiritual experiences are rare.

This makes me wonder - what is it that you and the BF get from this set of practices, if it's not a spiritual experience? What's valuable to you about what you do, religiously? I would be very curious to hear your answer about that, if you felt like answering. I think I have ideas about what religious practice can give someone (and how I, personally, can better get those things elsewhere), but maybe you're getting something else that I'm not thinking of.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

For my best friend, one of the functions of her religious practice (tho not the only one, or even necessarily the primary one) is to make spiritual experience more likely -- she doesn't always have spiritual experience at church, but she's more likely to at church than anywhere else.

For me, spiritual experiences aren't something I particularly seek. What I want out of communal religious stuff is:
* exposure to and engagement with Scripture
* music
* community
* prayer (wow, I realized I left this off the email I sent about this topic last night)

... And I have a phonecall to make, so won't elaborate on that list atm.