[The West Wing] 1.05 "The Crackpots and These Women"

[hermionesviolin]

When we first started watching the series, Mary Alice said that she had wanted to start with the pilot (duh) but that the show doesn't get REALLY good until episode 5. Seeing the title of course had me again thinking of "Daughters of Jerusalem (Canticle for These Women)."

The actual episode? ::shrug:: I really think that "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc" / "A Proportional Response" is/are the strongest so far.

The basketball opening reminded me of the opening of "Bushwhacked" (Firefly) which was happifying.

I find it interesting that Leo who is often such a jackass is the one doing the Andrew Jackson thing.

They are so dismissive to people. This feels unrealistic. I mean, even if you're a crackpot, you can probably garner a number of people who will be pissed that the Presidential staff totally blew you off.

CJ got sold on the wildlife thing? I have difficulty believing this. I heart her vending machine statistic, though, and am curious as to whether it's actually a f'real stat. (tv.com actually doesn't help me out.)

When CJ's turning to the door and says to Josh, "You're very sweet sometimes," Eric said, "Ew. Sexual tension I wasn't expecting." I got as far as mentioning that my friend Ari really liked the banter relationship between them [see here] and did later say "That's why you're Josh" (in reaction to him calling Josh obnoxious about something). But yeah, I was totally feeling the "omg, that's me and Eric." (Though damned if Eric gets to be in the nuclear bunker and I don't :) )

Wow, Josh's survivor guilt.

Yes, the speechifying at the end just feels too much. (I thought Bartlet's conversation with Toby¹ -- as well as Josh's speech about his friends, of course² -- was much more moving.)

¹ "thank God... I couldn't live without you Toby. I mean it. "

² "I want to be a comfort to my friends in tragedy. And I want to be able to celebrate with them in triumph. And for all the times in between, I just want to be able to look them in the eye. Leo, it's not for me. I want to be with my friends, my family, and these women."

[cites from westwingtranscripts.com]

Toby: It’s “Throw Open Our Office Doors To People Who Want To Discuss Things That We Could Care Less About... Day”
Er, that should be "Couldn't Care Less." I would think Toby would know that.

Comments

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Toby does that a lot. Use "I could care less" when he means couldn't. ARGH. It makes me want to smack him.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

::winces:: Arrogant speechwriters totally shouldn't make those kinds of errors!

[thistlerose.livejournal.com]

Nobody should. All a person has to do is think about what he's saying. :P

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Seriously.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Does he do it in writing, though? Because the level of diction required is different. IMHO, "could care less" is perfectly fine in speech.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Agreed that the level of diction required is different, but I like to think that people who are paid to work with words would be more intentional in their more casual speech as well. (It also frustrates me on the level of: This show is noted for its high-quality writing, so why make errors like that?)

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess I just don't see it as an error. Toby's from Brooklyn, and I don't know what Brooklyn dialects are like, but to me it seems perfectly plausible (and in character for Toby) for a college-educated person who is aware of words to use that phrase.

You work in higher education; is the idiom nonstandard in your workplace? (It could be a regional thing, though, although most of the research on the idiom I've seen on languagelog doesn't really support that. Although I've seen Stephen Pinker and others defend "could care less" as being sarcastic, an argument I don't quite buy.)

Also even if Toby were trying to keep from saying "could care less" because he works with words (although I don't quite follow that train of thought) it'd still probably be an uphill battle in speech if he grew up in a household and/or linguistic community in which the phrase was standard. I know that I try my best to keep from saying "who" when I "really mean" (whatever that means) "whom" (just out of a twisted sense of atavism) and God, it's hard, and I know I probably miss it without thinking more times than I catch myself.

And chances are (although it's been a while since I've seen the show), Toby also says "who" instead of "whom," (I know Willow Rosenberg does,) which probably would make me grit my teeth, although it's a practice that it's pretty much standard in all levels of spoken English at this point. Which just proves linguistic pet peeves aren't always rational.

Granted, if one wants to be in politics, one has to be able to effectively use the language of the upper-class white men who run the country--one can't use Ebonics, and "ain't" is probably out--but I don't think "could care less" falls far enough from that language for it to be an issue. Only people like you or me (I sat there for half a minute trying to figure out what part of speech "like" was and whether it should be followed by "I" or "me"), who care deeply about words to begin with, would probably catch the usage in the first place.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I haven't heard the phrase (either version) at work much. It's just one of those things that just sounds so wrong to me. Like how I am forever wincing at academics (and everyone else) saying "try and." I definitely do not have a clear articulation of how much of a descriptivist/prescriptivist I am.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

I definitely do not have a clear articulation of how much of a descriptivist/prescriptivist I am.

Me either, I must admit. I keep correcting my brother on the who/whom thing, and he's bristling, and I can't quite defend myself, but damn it, I like the word "whom" and I don't want to see it die!

Although part of me fully recognizes that I sound like a pompous ass whenever I use "whom" in spoken speech when the rest of the world uses "who," and just doesn't care.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I try to use "whom" when appropriate but probably misuse "who" more often than not -- in large part because I was never really taught how to use it, so I'm just doing the mental trick of replacing it with "him/them," which is not always an easy way to figure out which should be used.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

"Try and" bothers me too, but I've learned to (mostly) let go.

Another pet peeve: Joss decided to include incorrect conjugation in one of the great lines of "Restless". There's trees in the desert since you moved out... Grrr. But what can you do?

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

The first time I heard a professor using it was in my English Language class. Yeah, that was pretty special. (I really love/d the professor, but that phrase made me wince Every Time.)

I actually never noticed the error in that line. The contraction elides it (and makes it flow better than the correct way would), though I still feel like a bad English major that I never noticed it.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Toby uses "whom" correctly. They're all fairly erudite. The "could care less" phrase is about the only one of Toby's that has pinged me as unconventional. I've heard it defended as meaning he honestly could care less. He cares a little (he says sarcastically) but he could probably care less.

Apparently the folks defending the phrase have used it themselves in that way, and while it's not as common as "couldn't care less" (which is what I always use, except that one time and hermionesviolin immediately caught me, that smart girl *g*), they claim it's just as legitimate. *shrug* I don't really have a problem with it. I do grit my teeth at "drug" for the past tense of "to drag", however. Gah!

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure Toby uses "whom" correctly.

It's been a long time since I've seen canon, but I have to doubt it, because the "wrong" way actually sounds better in this day and age: "Who are you taking to the dance?" (or, for a more canon-like example, "Who is the President going to nominate?") would slip by my ear without notice, whereas I'd probably do a double-take if I heard "Whom are you..."

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

And because Elizabeth conveniently included a link to transcripts, I can say with confidence that they all "misuse" (misuse in square quotes because the usage is now perfectly standard) who/m. In the pilot, Josh says "Who is she working for?" and "Who do you get to run it?"
(actually, Josh is probably the worst offender out of all of them); Donna says "Who do you like?" and Toby says "Who do we get?" in "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc"; Leo says "Who we just recommended cuts in funding for the M6 Beacon" and "I didn't know who else you could get mad at" (this last one to the President himself) in "A Proportional Response." On the other hand, the word "whom" isn't used once in the pilot, "Post Hoc, Ergo Propter Hoc," or "A Proportional Response"; Josh does, however, say "Whomever we pick" in "Five Votes Down."

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Checking out the transcripts, very sneaky. *g* I suppose "whom" really is falling out of use, then. It's likely Toby used "whom" at least once in a particularly forceful and memorable way because it stuck in my head, though if you ask me now I couldn't tell you which episode!

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

That should be "scare quotes." *headdesk*

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I was wondering what you were trying to get at by calling them "square" quotes :)

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I have no recollection of "catching" you, but it's a very me thing to do, so I'm pleased that you remember it. :)

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

Hee! Actually, the reason I ever tried out the phrase in the first place was because I'd just heard Toby use it in "And It's Surely To Their Credit" and wanted to try it out!

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Er, that should be "Couldn't Care Less." I would think Toby would know that.

Logically speaking, yes. But as idioms, both versions are standard in many dialects (including my South Jersey one; I totally say "could care less") meaning the same thing.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

I know it's become common idiom; it still deeply frustrates me because it has no good reason for existing and I can't help thinking of what it actually means (which is nearly the opposite of what it is used to mean) when I hear it, which totally jars me out of the scene.

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Interestingly, according to Wikipedia, "could care less" in speech isn't standard in Britain the way it is in America. So I'd see it as an error if Lord Whats-his-name (you probably haven't even seen him yet) used the phrase.

[scrollgirl.livejournal.com]

I totally say "could care less") meaning the same thing.

And I just saw this comment... Er, feel free to totally ignore my other reply the reasons some folks might use the phrase!

[alixtii.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I totally use the phrase because my parents use the phrase. As far as I am concerned, it's "actual meaning" (as opposed to what, it's fake meaning? virtual meaning?) is the same as "couldn't care less."