Ecumenical Advent Sunday 3: St. George Greek Orthodox Church

[hermionesviolin]

[Advent day 15] Isaiah 35:1-10

¹ The desert and the parched land will be glad;
      the wilderness will rejoice and blossom.
      Like the crocus, ² it will burst into bloom;
      it will rejoice greatly and shout for joy.
      The glory of Lebanon will be given to it,
      the splendor of Carmel and Sharon;
      they will see the glory of the LORD,
      the splendor of our God.

³ Strengthen the feeble hands,
      steady the knees that give way;

⁴ say to those with fearful hearts,
      "Be strong, do not fear;
      your God will come,
      he will come with vengeance;
      with divine retribution
      he will come to save you."

⁵ Then will the eyes of the blind be opened
      and the ears of the deaf unstopped.

⁶ Then will the lame leap like a deer,
      and the mute tongue shout for joy.
      Water will gush forth in the wilderness
      and streams in the desert.

⁷ The burning sand will become a pool,
      the thirsty ground bubbling springs.
      In the haunts where jackals once lay,
      grass and reeds and papyrus will grow.

⁸ And a highway will be there;
      it will be called the Way of Holiness.
      The unclean will not journey on it;
      it will be for those who walk in that Way;
      wicked fools will not go about on it. [Or  / the simple will not stray from it]

⁹ No lion will be there,
      nor will any ferocious beast get up on it;
      they will not be found there.
      But only the redeemed will walk there,

¹⁰ and the ransomed of the LORD will return.
      They will enter Zion with singing;
      everlasting joy will crown their heads.
      Gladness and joy will overtake them,
      and sorrow and sighing will flee away.

---

When sk8eeyore heard I was gonna be visiting here, she linked me to this piece.  Amusingly, it's one of the pamphlets in a rack when you enter St. George.  I took a lot of pamphlets (which I haven't read yet) and talked with the Father some during coffee hour (which was more like a full luncheon) though of course later I remembered stuff I'd meant to ask since I wasn't actually looking at my notes while I was talking to him so this is very much an introduction to going to Sunday service at this particular church rather than a primer on Greek Orthodoxy.  He hoped I would come back -- of course -- but also said I was welcome to e-mail him with questions -- or I could ask the day's pastor, who teaches at Greek Seminary in Brookline.  And really, what I want far more than any sort of "church home" is a collection of people I can talk theology with.

Oh, and of course the issue of tradition came up in the conversation, and the Father pointed out that Tradition predates Scripture -- since it took some time for the letters to be collected, etc., which was a really good point I hadn't thought of before.



I got there around 9:30, so I had about a half an hour of Matins before the Divine Liturgy started.  So much chanting.  Which made it hard to catch most of the actual words.  I imagine one gets used to it.

So much incense, too.  It's that classic incense smell, though I'm not sure what that smell is -- I don't think it's patchouli.

I think these notes are all from chanty bits of Matins:

The sea creature spitting up Jonah, followed by something about Jesus being birthed without harm -- which I'm fairly certain meant that Jesus was born without disrupting Mary's physical wholeness, and okay, teleportation solves the hymen issue, but the implications that sex/bodies=bad bother me.

The Jews put Jesus to death (which made me twitchy), slumbering King, Christ gave us the cross as a weapon against enemies (of course I went to a vampire place with that) and then something about raising the dead (I'm fairly certain this was about Christ's followers having the power to raise the dead through the cross, and being in a vampire place this made my brain twisty).  Then there was a reading of Mark 16:17-18 about the signs by which Christ's followers will be known, and I find this interesting because nobody nowadays speaks in tongues or drives out demons, and the picking up snakes bit always makes me think of that X-Files episode, and the whole thing is just a prime example of one of "Is this still true today?  How do you reconcile it with the realities of today?"

From the bulletin:

The Sunday that falls between December 11-17 is known as the Sunday of the Holy Forefathers.  These are the ancestors of Christ according to the flesh, who lived before the Law, especially the Patriarch Abraham, to whom God said. "In thy seed shall all of the nations of the earth be blessed" (Gen 12:3, 22:18). ~ OCA.org

The church celebrates the Three Children and Daniel on this day, on the Sunday of the Forefathers, and on the Sunday before the Nativity of Christ, since they prefigured and proclaimed His Incarnation.  Furthermore, they were of the tribe of Judah, wherefrom, Christ sprang forth according to the flesh.  The holy Three Children completed their lives full of days; as for the Prophet Daniel, he lived until the reign of Cyrus, King of Persia, whom he also petitioned that his nation be allowed to return to Jerusalem and that the Temple be raised again, and his request was granted.  He reposed in Peace, having lived about eighty-eight years.  His prophetical book, which is divided unto twelve chapters, is ranked fourth among the Greater Prophets. ~ Reading courtesy of Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Brookline, MA

The readings that were actually recited were Colossians 3:4-11 and Luke 14:16-24.  I had some clever thought about "For I tell you, none of those men who were invited shall taste my banquet." -- about Jews and Gentiles and the covenants, but I don't remember what that was.  And one question I neglected to ask was, "Why do the Scripture readings not fit with your liturgical calendar?"

The sermon was 3-points using an extended adoption metaphor (which I guess sort of goes with the Scripture readings -- though they really weren't related to the forefathers/martyrs theme) and I love his clear outlineyness: "My first point is X.  Now I will elaborate upon it.  My second point is Y.  Now I will elaborate upon it.  And to review, my first point is X, my second point is Y, and and my third point is Z, which I will now elaborate upon."

1) The paperwork etc. of adoption is initiated before the child is born.  I thought this paralleled nicely with Jeremiah 1:5 ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you") -- though he didn't explicitly reference it.
+ He talked about parental seniority, but he kept saying "He" and "paternal" and I was getting seriously bugged and regret that I didn't think to ask him when I saw him at coffee hour, 'cause while I respect the conception of God as male, adoption is usually only allowed in two-parent homes so I imagine he has a wife who was involved in all this.
2) The biological child and the adopted are equally real children, neither one is "more real" or superior to the other.  (Hello Romans 11:17-21.)
3) Adoption is a gift.
+ He qupted Hebrews 4, God talking about his 40 year wrath, how not a one of them will enter my rest (which sounded oh so harsh phrased that way, 'cause it implies the afterlife while the story is only explicitly talking about the land of Canaan -- which phrase always starts me singing Indigo Girls), saying how's that for resting on paternal laurels?  (i.e., everyone has flawed ancestors)
+ Grace is a gift not earned.  The most common liturgical response is "Lord have mercy" because what else can you say in the face of all that?
+ "While you were still sinners" -- not when you were trying your best -- Christ died for you (Romans 5:8)
+ He mentioned that the phrases should really be "the Church of God" and "the People of God" rather than just "the Church" and "the People."  He said that in the original phrase (ecclesia theu -- I know I'm totally mangling that second word, which I think was in fact two words, since I know no Greek so my memory for it is awful) the subject is God.
+ He talked about how his adopted daughter becomes a part of his family, of his lineage, through his word (i.e. the adoption papers) which had wonderful unspoken resonance given the multiplicity of meaning of Word in the Bible.
+ And something about Paul as father to Corinthians, which exact citation I can't find. [Edit: found it in one of the pamphlets I picked up: "For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gosopel" (1 Corinthians 4:15, NASV).]

After the service, half a dozen people introduced themselves -- and asked if I was new and if I was Orthodox/Greek.  I told everyone I was just visiting, that I had friends who were interested in Orthodox theology so I wanted to attend an Orthodox service.  Everyone was very nice and said positive things about the church and thanked me for coming and expressed the hope that I would return, saying I was welcome anytime.

During the service, there was a little boy who kept popping up everywhere, though he was very quiet, and I was sitting with a bunch of older (read: grandmother) women at coffee hour and one of them mentioned how wonderful it is that there are all these children and how they think of this as like their family and explicitly mentioned that boy.  I remembered how my mom has said that back in the day people would pace the back of the sanctuary at United when their infants fussed and thought how markedly different this woman's reaction to the little boy was from my grandmother's haranguing about the disruptive children with the parents who can't keep them under control &c &c.

I mentioned to someone that I had just graduated from college and she said I looked about 14.  Yeah, everyone says I'll be glad of this when I'm older, but I would far rather look 40 when I'm 40 than look 14 when I'm 22.  (Also: People say this as if no one ever ages well.  I know plenty of people who are in their 40s or 50s or older who look good.  Do they look their age?  Maybe; I'm awful at determining people's ages on sight.  But there are plenty of people with wrinkles, grey/white hair, etc. who do not look bad.)

Comments

[sk8eeyore.livejournal.com]

It gives me joy that you went to an Orthodox Church, even though I'm not Orthodox, and that you talked with the priest. I would've liked to have been a fly on that wall :)

Amusingly, it's one of the pamphlets in a rack when you enter St. George's. Oh yeah, it was at Holy Transfiguration, too. Am definitely a fan of the Orthodox pamphlet-racks.

Greek Seminary in Brookline One of the sadnesses about not attending HDS is that if I'd gone there, I could've taken classes at the Greek Orthodox seminary for credit, through the Boston Theological Institute.

teleportation solves the hymen issue Oh, wow -- what a sentence. but the implications that sex/bodies=bad bother me. I can ask Mary about this sometime if I get the chance. (I mean, *my* Mary, not that Mary.) She's the most conservative Catholic I've ever met and always has good informed answers about things.

I find this interesting because nobody nowadays speaks in tongues or drives out demons, Um, well, depends on who you're talking to, yo. I promise I could find you some people right here at YDS who'd tell you emphatically otherwise.

that I had friends who were interested in Orthodox theology so I wanted to attend an Orthodox service. *feels loved*

And I'm curious about your reactions to the liturgy itself, not so much the thinky stuff, since my impression is that Orthodox liturgy is less about the latter than Protestant worship is. And I've still only gone to one sparsely-attended Vespers, not a Sunday liturgy... Did you feel awkward at all?

What else did you talk about with the Father?

reply, part 1

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

> > teleportation solves the hymen issue
> Oh, wow -- what a sentence.

Isn't it, though? :)

> > but the implications that sex/bodies=bad bother me.
> I can ask Mary about this sometime if I get the chance. (I mean, *my* Mary, not that Mary.) She's the most conservative Catholic I've ever met and always has good informed answers about things.

I'm definitely returning to the Mary issue in my e-mail to the Father, because while I mostly don't think about Mary ever, she's this huge deal for so many people and in so many religious traditions that I would really like a solid explanation. But I'm certainly interested in how different people find peace with these ideas, so feel free to ask her.

> > I find this interesting because nobody nowadays speaks in tongues or drives out demons,
> Um, well, depends on who you're talking to, yo. I promise I could find you some people right here at YDS who'd tell you emphatically otherwise.

Yeah, as I was writing that I thought, "Wait, there are charismatic/Pentecostal/whatever Protestant sects that do believe that -- and I think the Catholic Church still technically does exorcisms." I guess my thought is that no one says, "All true believers in Christ have all these abilities," which is what Christ's statement seems to imply. (Or maybe some people do? But for everyone else who *doesn't* say that, how do they deal with that tension?)

reply, part 2

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

> And I'm curious about your reactions to the liturgy itself, not so much the thinky stuff, since my impression is that Orthodox liturgy is less about the latter than Protestant worship is. And I've still only gone to one sparsely-attended Vespers, not a Sunday liturgy... Did you feel awkward at all?

+ It occurred to me after I posted (at which point I was in bed, hence the lack of edit) that I had mostly just talked about the sermon.
+ The chanting and the incense were the big things. I mean, I'd read about it so I wasn't entirely surprised, but it was still sort of overwhelming. And having read the essay I knew intellectualy that people would be coming in and moving around throughout Matins. But because of that, I was expecting it to be just chanting, whereas in fact there was lots of Scripture and suchlike, so I felt like I was in an actual service, but I didn't really know what was going on. As I'd been walking to church and realizing it was much closer than I had thought (and thus I would get there earlier than I had expected) I figured I'd have a long prayer time, but I ended up spending all of my time looking around. The whole front wall as well as the carved-out ceiling had pictures of people on them. And there were people coming in, and venerating assorted things in the sanctuary, and sometimes lighting candles.
+ As it got closer to when the service would start, assorted little boys, some with coats still on, went up to and through the two side doors. There must have been a coatroom off to the side, because they showed up in the service wearing cream and gold robes, parading the gold stuff on sticks (a cross, a couple cage-like things, and I think something else) during various parts of the service. There are figures painted right on the doors, so with all the fanciness it was a little disconcerting to see this kids just go up and right through the doors 'cause it felt like a separate sacred space when in fact of course it's accessible.
+ They have a Children's Guide to the Liturgy booklet in each pew, which walks you through it, which I was a big fan of, but before the service started, and older woman came in and wanted to sit in my pew and took the booklet (I had flipped through it and then put it back, to pick up once the service actually started) so I just kinda stumbled (metaphorically) through the service. At first I stayed seated but after a bit I stood up everytime the congregation stood. They recited the Creed and I listened along and yes, I would have said very little if any of it even if I had had it in front of me. I would have liked to have the follow-along to better understand what was going as well as what they were saying, though of course I would have of course only joined in for very few things (as is always true).
+ The sermon was about 25 minutes, and Communion was about 15, with the whole service clocking in at only about 1hr 15 min (shorter than I had been expecting). There's a little welcome bulletin in each pew that mentions that only properly confessioned Orthodox can receive Communion, though all are welcome to partake of the Holy Bread, so while I was tempted to try to actually take Communion ('cause I'm interested in the experience) I didn't wanna push it, so I went in line and when I was next I just kept walking and picked up Holy Bread. The Father is in the center, with the chalice, and each congregant bends their knees a bit and he ladles some into their mouth -- and a red cloth is held under their chin stretching to the chalice (in case of spillage I imagine) -- and there's a basket of Holy Bread on either side, so you just pick some up as you begin to walk back to your seat.
+ After the service is over, the Father stood at the front holding a small metal cross and people processed up like they do to receive Communion and they kiss the cross and I skipped that and went directly to coffee hour 'cause no way was I gonna kiss the cross and it would have felt disrespectful, like deliberate snubbing or something, to just walk by it when everyone else was kissing it.
+ They didn't do any Holy Kiss, which I had been expecting from the essay, and they did have some sort of communal prayer of confession prior to Communion, which thanks to the essay I *hadn't* been expecting.

reply, part 3 [experience, cont.]

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

+ "Awkward" isn't quite the word I would have used, but it was definitely very different from what I'm used to and much beyond even Anglican High Masses and the Emmanuel Lutheran service I went to (though those both certainly helped prepare me insomuch as this wasn't completely foreign) and part of the apart-feeling-ness was just thinking, "This is so not the kind of place that would be my church home" because it is so different from what I'm used to and all the veneration and High Churchyness makes me uncomfortable (in a not-used-to-this way as well as a theological way).
+ The service was definitely well-attended. The pews probably would have fit ~60 with plenty of personal space (6 pews on each side, 5 people in each) but people came in late and were seated at intervals, squeezing in, and there were pews along the back wall for latecomers to sit in, so my guess for attendance would be ~80, and the sanctuary felt full because of how small it was designed.

> And I'm curious about your reactions to the liturgy itself, not so much the thinky stuff, since my impression is that Orthodox liturgy is less about the latter than Protestant worship is.

Partly I talked mostly about the sermon because at 25/75 minutes it was a large portion of the service, and also because *that* I could talk about; since so much of the service was so foreign that I don't have notes or anything and couldn't even follow along so it was mostly just washing over me (which I know is partly the point, especially during Matins, but it's not very helpful).

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

> What else did you talk about with the Father?

+ I introduced myself and he asked about my background and why I was here. He said I was welcome to ask him any questions I had, and since the teleportation thing was one of the things that had so stuck in my mind, I asked, "Virgin Mary. Where does it come from and why is it so important?" (paraphrase). He was surprised, and I think a little bit impressed, and said something like, "Okay, starting right at the top." He said they believe she came into this world just as we did -- they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception -- and that she's human and is not God (I got the feeling he had had this conversation a lot). We did some back and forth but as intense as I might have liked 'cause I just wasn't feeling like spending forever talking about Mary (though I really would like a solid explanation, so it's definitely going in the increasingly long e-mail I'm writing him) and he talked about how she is spiritually *and* physically and a figure for us to emulate in many ways for example her being one of the few to stay at the foot of the cross, and I pointed out that lots of people are called to do great things and placing her so high/important was troubling to me and if your whole congregation emulates her in all things then you all die out in one generation and Paul thought the end times were coming like next week, but.... I often felt like he only answered part of a question I asked or that he was answering a different question (as if he's used to certain questions and so slips into certain answers even when they don't really address the specifics of my question) and I wonder if partly I let it go because I just didn't wanna enter a heated debate -- 'cause I can get bitchy when I'm dissatisfied with the answers I'm getting.
+ I asked why all the chanting and he said it comes from monastic tradition, and that since not everyone is blessed with the same vocal abilities as other people, they do some parts (such as the Lord's Prayer) as recitations rather than chants because they feel it's important that everyone be able to participate in them. He talked about how the Orthodox Church has its roots in the Byzantine East as opposed to the Roman Catholic and Protestant churches which have their roots in the West, so there's a very different atmosphere/style. And we had the mini-conversation about Tradition that I mentioned in my orginal post. And he said that as a non-Orthodox I'm allowed to kiss the cross and take Holy Bread and do everything except actually take Communion.
+ At the time, those were the only things I could think of to ask about since I wasn't looking at my notes and had been kinda overwhelmed by the whole thing. He's definitely getting a long e-mail from me, though.

[sk8eeyore.livejournal.com]

I feel like I should have lots more specific responses, but really I just wanted to say wow, I'm so glad you wrote all this out, because I was especially curious to hear your thoughts/reactions to something so vastly different from low church Protestantism. (And I would *love* to hear about your e-mail exchange with the priest--hope he responds to you in satisfactory detail. Satisfactory in terms of length and clarity, at least, even if you don't find it theologically agreeable :) I'm pretty boggled by the teleportation thing too since that's an idea I don't believe I've ever heard hinted at before, though I did always wonder how perpetual virginity could be tenable.) I never really saw Orthodox worship as something that would be appealing to me, either, and of course I still don't know for sure since I've had so little exposure so far; I still can't imagine ever considering myself High Church per se, but I think what attracts me to Orthodox liturgy and the liturgy at St John's (which is still relatively Low Church) is the way the theology's inseparable from the ritual action; theology richly informs every bit of the worship and vice versa, and I find that intrinsic harmony hard to resist. Looking forward to hearing of your next (Episcopal?) venture.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

Well I have to finish my e-mail to the Father first :) I'm sure I'll be posting about the results.

And yes, Grace Episcopal is this Sunday.

[sk8eeyore.livejournal.com]

I read something in Frederica Mathewes-Green's book (At the Corner of East and Now: A Modern Life in Ancient Christian Orthodoxy) that I thought might interest you about the chanting:

We take turns reading the epistle each Sunday, with some variation in delivery; some merely read it and some chant. The liturgical preference is for chanting because, contrary to what you might expect, we believe it's better for the Bible to be read without expression. A talented reader's emphasis on one phrase or another would amount to a distracting personal interpretation. A clear chant lets the passage speak for itself. (p. 121)

Kind of cool, I think.

I like this book, but I was remembering something you said about how Lauren Winner wasn't a good enough writer to pull off the interplay of theology/autobiography or something like that, so I wonder if you'd feel similarly about this book -- though I do think Frederica's a much more skilled writer. It definitely isn't academic, but still very informative.

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

That is a really interesting idea. I like having the reader's emphasis because it helps me hone in on specific parts of a passage whereas with a chant it's easy for the whole thing to just wash over me, but it's definitely an argument that has legitmacy to it. And I'd never heard it before, so thank you for that.

I have a low opinion of Winner, but I definitely think in theory someone could pull off a spiritual autobiography that doesn't shortchange either aspect of the form.

[sk8eeyore.livejournal.com]

By the way...was just looking a bit at the website, and it's part of the Antiochian Archdiocese, but I thought you were referring to it as Greek...?

[hermionesviolin.livejournal.com]

After reading your comment, I went back to the website and actually had to force myself to read the given title of the church because I'm so used to thinking of it as "Greek Orthodox." Aided by the fact that during coffee hour many people asked me if I was Greek. I think there was something in the pew Welcome bulletin (which I did not take home with me) about them being closest to the Antiochian but I honestly don't recall the details.