Elizabeth (the delinquent, ecumenical) (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
hermionesviolin) wrote2004-01-12 02:40 am
hermionesviolin) wrote2004-01-12 02:40 am
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Well, i have managed to be somewhat productive this weekend. (Icon-making is addictive.)
Saturday i got books from Forbes, as well as my tax forms. After brunch with ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
hedy, she took pictures of my hair. Later i hung out with applejuicegirl and got to be helpful (which i enjoy doing), including [but not limited to] trying to teach her how to juggle (with lots of “Jay says...”) and making her LJ icons.
Sunday morning we went to church and then had brunch and then i researched internships and demolished a small park to print out information and she studied EMT and then we watched Jesus Christ Superstar as our reward. Okay, i say bad things about Godspell because i saw the play first and loved it and then saw the movie and it wasn’t as good, and it ended before the Resurrection. Looking back, i suspect the movie as a whole was rather good, just not as good as the play, and that i am embittered because it omits the Resurrection (which the play ends with). I would have to rewatch the movie to be sure. But Jesus Christ Superstar? Bad bad bad.
Kids getting off a bus? Um, i’m confused. Okay, whatever.
Judas is a black man? Hello problematic racial dynamics. And Jesus is a blonde white man. Is his hair dyed? (His goatee is dark.)
"I've been your right hand man all along." Um, no. I would guess Peter (whom Jesus renamed with the word for “rock” because he was to be the rock of the church) or maybe Paul (founder of what has become the modern church after Jesus’ death), but Judas doesn’t really show up in the Bible except for the whole betrayal thing.
"There is not a man among you who knows or cares if I come or go."
This from the man who always has mobs following him (both in the Bible and in this movie)? I think not.
Judas has issues with Mary... because she’s a prostitute? Oh, because he wants Jesus. Yes,lilithchilde, i’m seeing why you were all about the Judas/Jesus after seeing this. And the hand clasp (with the hand traveling down the arm first) and the lock gaze? Yeah. (Incidentally, Mary is a woman of color, looks Native American to me. Seeing the horde of followers as many different races makes me feel better about Judas being black, because obviously the filmmakers were trying to give it a multicultural feel. But dude, Jesus practically glows white during one of those confrontation moments, and even if they were just trying to do a metaphorical color contrast, you can’t help but have that be problematic: black man villain, white man savior. Also, i can see Mary’s ethnic foreignness accentuating her outsider status, but she is also played up as a beautiful woman, and her prostitute-status is implied, adding to her sensuality/sexuality, so having her be racially exotic on top of that is problematic.)
“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”
-John 12:7-8
How poignant is that line? “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial.” And it’s not like it’s telegraphing (as opposed to foreshadowing) since every one knows he’s going to die.
Ooh, and hello making Judas more likable. (Though straight up, i didn’t particularly like any of the characters in this film.) John 12:4-6 states: “But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him objected. ‘Why wasn’t the perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.’ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.” Of course, what i find most interesting about that, is that obviously Jesus knew Judas was a thief (because Jesus was God incarnate and thus knew everything) and yet he kept him around. I wonder if any sermons have been done on that. I know there have been ones on Mary-the-prostitute (and of course recently it has come under question whether she really was a prostitute) and Zacchaeus-the-tax-collector (they often over-taxed people to keep the extra for themselves; not well-liked people). [Hmm. I guess the man in charge of the money is pretty durn important, so is that what the writers were thinking of when they had Judas refer to himself as Jesus’ righthand man? Or were they just sloppy?]
Okay, so John’s version is actually quite different from most. He says that they were at the house of Mary and Martha after Lazarus’ resurrection, while Matthew and Mark put them at the house of Simon the Leper, and just say “a woman came” and poured the expensive perfume on Jesus, and then
"this film tells the story of the final 6 days in the life of Jesus Christ"
Someone tell me how that “6 days” was figured out. John follows the annointing at Bethany with the Hosanna riding into Jerusalem (Whoa, how did i forget that he rode into Jerusalem? I’ve even heard sermons on the bit about him sending the disciples to get a donkey. Needless to say, in the movie he walks, which admittedly makes for more of a sense of him being close with the people, just like them, not a king above them, etc.) “The next day” and then there are no further time markers in the incidents that follow except that the Last Supper ends after dark (I was so pissed that Peter’s denials are in broad daylight, because in the Bible Jesus does not just say “Peter, you will deny me 3 times,” but he says “You will deny me 3 times before the cock crows” -- and thinking about it now, in the Bible it is the crowing of the cock that makes him realize what he has done, not the admonishments of Mary, though in the movie that allows him to explain what Bible readers must only infer: that now that Jesus is arrested, everyone associated with him fears for their own lives as well.)
Wow, the conversation the 2 Pharisees have ("And Then We Are Decided/This Jesus Must Die") is actually in the Bible. (John 11:45-53) I never remembered reading that. I just knew that Jesus was usurping the authority of the Pharisees and they were upset and wanted him out of the picture. Who knew that stuff like "For the sake of the nation, this Jesus must die" parallels "You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish" (John 11:49)? [Incidentally, the whole “we need to get Jesus away from the crowds, so we can arrest him without interference” gets i think one line in the movie, but it’s mentioned repeatedly in the various versions of the story in the Bible.]
However, the movie eliminates the part about how Jesus knew his life is in danger and thus laid low. In fact, we start off with Judas worried that they are getting too loud and will be crushed (Hello, “mind your place you uppity Negro”), and then we see everyone hanging out in the desert, and then the Pharisees plotting, and then Jesus out in the open -- followed by the moneychangers in the temple (which follows the triumphal entry in Luke).
"Hey JC, JC you're alright by me."
Wow, could you be more condescending? (Though yes i know it was supposed to be a positive, supportive statement.) Also, is this movie responsible for that whole referring-to-“Jesus Christ”-as-“JC”-thing? (Also, the 70s slang often annoys me in its anachronism, but the people calling Jesus “superstar” has got to be the worst.) There’s somewhere famous i heard something like that.... *Googles* Rocky Horror? *thinks* Yeah, that’s it. [Riff Raff: A decision had to be made. Dr. Scott: You're okay by me.]
Okay, i like that they work in the whole "I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out" (Luke 19:40) thing, but damn, Jesus feels angry and mean-spirited to me almost the entire movie, including here.
"Sing me your songs, but not for me alone.
Sing them for yourselves for you are blessed"
Anachronistic as it would be, i was expecting the Sermon on the Mount here (“Blessed are the...”).
"Hey JC, JC won't you die for me?"
Love the freeze-frame there. Great moment.
"Christ you know I love you
Did you see I waved?
I believe in you and God
So tell me that I'm saved."
Great commentary, on at least two levels. Though one of my thoughts was “Well really, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved” -- and i am stopping myself digressing into my personal opinions on salvation and what the Bible says and all that.
Interesting. 4 different people are focused on during "Simon Zealotes": a black man (Simon -- who borders problematically on the animalistic stereotype of black men), a woman of color, a blond woman, and an old man. Christ was all about the minorities, so i like this subtle attention to detail. But, um, how about casting people who actually look Jewish? Especially for, oh, say, the part of Jesus?
Keep them yelling their devotion,
But add a touch of hate at Rome.
You will rise to a greater power.
We will win ourselves a home.
You will get the power and the glory.
Forever and ever and ever
Oh yeah, because clearly, hate meshes so well with what Jesus was all about. I had to laugh at Simon’s foolishness. And ha, you think you can guarantee Jesus power and glory and everlasting fame with your plans. Did you miss the part where he’s God?
So of course i liked Jesus’ reply:
Whee, the temple. I knew what was coming as soon as it started, of course. And hello temple prostitutes. (I was ever so pleased that they included them, not ‘cause it was hot, but because they existed and it helps you understand just how much the people had corrupted the temple. *thinks of conversation she was having withcarpdeus, which is not to say that the situations are exactly comparable, of course*) And whoa, there was a table with a machine gun.
"My temple should be a house of prayer, But you have made it a den of thieves."
Whoa. First (and only) time Jesus claims Godhood in this movie. Really powerful moment.
Geek who keeps looking stuff up notes that Jesus is quoting the prophets Isaiah (56:7) and Jeremiah (7:11) when he speaks that line.
"Healings" bothered me, because while i understand the frustration of Jesus at constantly being in demand (Mark for instance.. Jesus heals many and then 1:35 “Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” or Matthew 8:18 “When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake” -- incidentally, since Jesus is God-incarnate, he’s the ultimate model for Christians, and here he is repeatedly claiming alone time *waves to mommy*) he’s God; he could heal every human being of each and every infirmity in an instant, with no more than a thought. Well, in my theology anyway. The divinity of Christ is of course a point of contention, and people have argued that his powers were limited when he was confined to a fleshly body. Somehow i don’t think the creators of Jesus Christ Superstar were keen to these theological subtleties, however.
Clearly, we needed that love song. Is it because all movies need a love story or because they felt the PC thing to do was to give the one female a larger part? Yes, i’m annoyed because it’s totally superfluous, and though many argue that Mary and Jesus had a sexual relationship, it’s only in the barest of implications in the Bible and is thus really quite irrelevant to this depiction of Jesus’ last days.
Judas: "I have no thought at all about my own reward, I really didn't come here on my own accord! Just don't say I'm damned for all time!"
*remembers Dante’s Inferno [which incidentally, while a great work in many ways, has only the vaguest relation to Scripture]* Oh, the irony.
"Blood Money" was an okay song. I understand that they had to come up with a way to explain his agreeing to betray someone he cared so much about, and you’re essentially making shit up, since no one in the Bible tries to explain why Judas betrayed him (though the earlier quoted piece from John about him being a thief definitely suggests that at least one of the apostles thought Judas was scum) and they made a good go at it, it just didn’t fully work for me.
"Cash on the nail," huh? A Google search reveals this to be an actual phrase. It must have been done on purpose for effect here, given that it’s "blood money" for a crucifixion.
Also, Judas is chased by tanks, and then he’s at the high priests’ place, and then there are airplanes whizzing over him. Wha happa?
The Last Supper is outside? Okay, so it turns out that it is only Mark and Luke who have an “upper room,” and i get that this was the 70s, commune with nature and all that.
I was annoyed that they didn’t do more of the sacred communion ritual (Funny, because Communion isn’t something i usually feel a sacred connection with when i’m actually doing it.) and that instead it’s mostly just Jesus being angry. (Okay, to be fair, if i knew i were gonna be arrested to be crucified that night, betrayed by one of my nearest and dearest, and that another nearest and dearest would thrice deny me before daybreak, i’d be in a bad mood, too, but The Last Supper is one of the most moving occurrences, and they don’t even try to do it justice.)
"Gethsemane (I Only Want to Say)"
Okay, Jesus in the Bible wishes he did not have to drink that bitter cup, but this is the song in which i most strongly feel that the films errs too far toward Jesus-as-man, diminishing Jesus-as-God to the point where i think the writers believed Jesus was a prophet of sorts, was a chosen and willing sacrifice (which, i suppose, is some people’s theology).
*pouts* I wanted Peter to cut off the centurion’s ear and have “He who lives by the sword, dies the by sword.”
Why are you obsessed with fighting?
Stick to fishing from now on.
As she whispers, “I will make you Fishers of Men.”
Herod, um, wow, he’s trippy. And of course, we remember that Herod has wanted Jesus dead since his birth, and he nicely
There’s definitely some desperation in Herod’s final running after Jesus, "Get out of my life!" and i felt at some moments during the song like he wanted to believe, wanted Jesus to prove he was God (i thought of the temptations of Christ in the desert here). And actually, it’s not so clear in the movie, but in the Bible, Pilate sends Jesus to Herod, and Herod sends him back; Herod will not convict him. (There are really no secular charges against him, but it’s heavily implied that no one wants to kill him, either. I did not reread all 4 gospels in full tonight, so i can’t speak about the specifics of the legalities of the whole thing.)
Okay, so when they push Jesus down the slope into the white sand (and he’s wearing socks, what up?) i thought they were just gonna skip to the post-Crucifixion, and i was pissed, because it loses so much of its power if you don’t see it (though i’ve gotta say, interesting choice seeing the flashes of Passion paintings during Gethsemane) but then it turns out he just got beaten up by the mob. Does that even happen in the Bible? I suppose perhaps it’s implied.
I saw the tree and thought “Judas Tree” and then thought “What does that mean? How do i know that?” I had totally forgotten that Judas hangs himself. [Matthew actually talks at length about Judas after the betrayal, 27:1-10] And who immortalized that image of the “Judas Tree” anyway? I’m guessing a Renaissance painter, but perhaps it is more modern.
And we’re back to Pilate. You could tell he didn’t want Jesus’ blood on his hands that first time around. He seemed a bit more schizophrenic this time around. (Also, i wanted to see the Barabbas scene. Interestingly, they included “We have no king but Caesar,” which i didn’t even know was part of the happenings until i saw it in my Bible tonight -- John 19:15.)
Also, reading the Biblical accounts... while a bit of a neat rhetorical trick, JCS totally undermines what the Bible says Jesus was, by having him keeping doing that “Your words, not mine” bit, but in the Bible he keeps saying “Yes, it is as you say” -- to the Sanhedrin’s question “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?” (Matthew 26:63-64 and Mark 14:61-62 are almost identical, and then there’s Luke 22:70 which is a little different, and then John is heavily different) and to Pilate’s question “Are you the King of the Jews?” (Matthew 27:11 and Mark 15:2 are almost identical, and then there’s Luke 23:3 which is a little different, and then John is heavily different).
"I have no kingdom in the world I'm through. There may be a kingdom for me somewhere. If I only knew." Again, far too doubting a Christ for me.
Pontius Pilate: "And what is 'truth'? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"
Huh. Interesting. (Personally, i think truth is different from law, and while people may have different truths, i believe in an ultimate Truth.) [Interestingly, John does report (18:37-38) Judas asking “What is truth?” after Jesus says “Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”]
Ew, flogging [which i also didn’t remember from the Bible, and which only Matthew and Mark report]. And silent Jesus. I half-expected a single tear like in Glory(?). Whoa, and then Jesus rolls over, onto the sand. That’s gotta sting. Nice touch with Pilate’s bloody hands, the realization is well acted, well directed, and then the literal washing of the hands.
"Why'd you choose such a backwards time in such a strange land?"
Um, Roman Empire? Pretty influential if you ask me.
Oh, Judas symbolizes the modern (1970s) era. No wonder he was a in a pink jumpsuit when everyone else was in period clothing. I had been confused by that.
I’m still not sure what it’s all supposed to mean. Judas was associated with modernity and he was responsible for the downfall of Jesus, but he gets driven to the Pharisees by tanks... i’m confused.
God, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing.
Who is my mother? Where is my mother?
My God! My God, why have you forgotten me?
I am thirsty
It is finished.
Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.
All i recall from the movie is that first line -- the only spoken line in the whole thing, but he was mumbling softly, so maybe i just missed it. They seem to have combined all the reported words of the crucified Christ and meshed them together.
So, the soundtrack has as a last track, "John Nineteen: Forty One."
Interestingly, my Bible says “At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid,” for that verse, but i don’t really remember him getting laid in a tomb at the end of the film (though i do like the sunset behind the empty cross).
AND AGAIN, NO RESURRECTION. THIS IS NO GOOD! THE RESURRECTION IS KEY!
Okay, well at least the kids on the bus makes a nice frame. And i guess it’s an interesting idea, modern people going back to watch, to live, the time of Jesus.
I don’t actually like any of the songs in this i don’t think. And Jesus has this annoying high pitch when he yells.
Also, it was all filmed in Israel. I am turning into my father’s daughter, because i realized watching it that it couldn’t have been filmed in the U.S., because we don’t have rocks that look like that. (Also, um, i saw sand getting kicked up a lot, and yet no one was ever dusty. Even when they looked sweaty/oiled.)
This entry got delayed because i was talking about the film withlilithchilde, which led to talking religion, and two and a half hours later.... ;) I know there’s plenty in here that we didn’t talk about, so feel free to take issue with stuff and we can argue again :)
hedy, she took pictures of my hair. Later i hung out with applejuicegirl and got to be helpful (which i enjoy doing), including [but not limited to] trying to teach her how to juggle (with lots of “Jay says...”) and making her LJ icons.Sunday morning we went to church and then had brunch and then i researched internships and demolished a small park to print out information and she studied EMT and then we watched Jesus Christ Superstar as our reward. Okay, i say bad things about Godspell because i saw the play first and loved it and then saw the movie and it wasn’t as good, and it ended before the Resurrection. Looking back, i suspect the movie as a whole was rather good, just not as good as the play, and that i am embittered because it omits the Resurrection (which the play ends with). I would have to rewatch the movie to be sure. But Jesus Christ Superstar? Bad bad bad.
Kids getting off a bus? Um, i’m confused. Okay, whatever.
Judas is a black man? Hello problematic racial dynamics. And Jesus is a blonde white man. Is his hair dyed? (His goatee is dark.)
"I've been your right hand man all along." Um, no. I would guess Peter (whom Jesus renamed with the word for “rock” because he was to be the rock of the church) or maybe Paul (founder of what has become the modern church after Jesus’ death), but Judas doesn’t really show up in the Bible except for the whole betrayal thing.
"There is not a man among you who knows or cares if I come or go."
This from the man who always has mobs following him (both in the Bible and in this movie)? I think not.
Judas has issues with Mary... because she’s a prostitute? Oh, because he wants Jesus. Yes,
lilithchilde, i’m seeing why you were all about the Judas/Jesus after seeing this. And the hand clasp (with the hand traveling down the arm first) and the lock gaze? Yeah. (Incidentally, Mary is a woman of color, looks Native American to me. Seeing the horde of followers as many different races makes me feel better about Judas being black, because obviously the filmmakers were trying to give it a multicultural feel. But dude, Jesus practically glows white during one of those confrontation moments, and even if they were just trying to do a metaphorical color contrast, you can’t help but have that be problematic: black man villain, white man savior. Also, i can see Mary’s ethnic foreignness accentuating her outsider status, but she is also played up as a beautiful woman, and her prostitute-status is implied, adding to her sensuality/sexuality, so having her be racially exotic on top of that is problematic.)JudasThe annointing at Bethany has never been one of my favorite episodes, but i thought surely they could have come up with a better explanation. (And can’t you just see liberals foaming at the mouth? “You just bought a plasma screen TV. You know how many African children you could vaccinate with that money?” “Well I can hardly cure everyone, now can I, so why try?”) *looks it up in Bible*
Woman, your fine ointment, brand new and expensive
Could have been saved for the poor.
Why has it been wasted? We could have raised maybe
Three hundred silver pieces or more.
People who are hungry, people who are starving
They matter more than your feet and hair.
Jesus
Surely you're not saying we have the resources
To save the poor from their lot?
There will be poor always, pathetically struggling
Look at the good things you've got.
Think while you still have me!
Move while you still see me!
You'll be lost, you'll be so sorry when I'm gone.
“Leave her alone,” Jesus replied. “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me.”
-John 12:7-8
How poignant is that line? “It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial.” And it’s not like it’s telegraphing (as opposed to foreshadowing) since every one knows he’s going to die.
Ooh, and hello making Judas more likable. (Though straight up, i didn’t particularly like any of the characters in this film.) John 12:4-6 states: “But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him objected. ‘Why wasn’t the perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages.’ He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.” Of course, what i find most interesting about that, is that obviously Jesus knew Judas was a thief (because Jesus was God incarnate and thus knew everything) and yet he kept him around. I wonder if any sermons have been done on that. I know there have been ones on Mary-the-prostitute (and of course recently it has come under question whether she really was a prostitute) and Zacchaeus-the-tax-collector (they often over-taxed people to keep the extra for themselves; not well-liked people). [Hmm. I guess the man in charge of the money is pretty durn important, so is that what the writers were thinking of when they had Judas refer to himself as Jesus’ righthand man? Or were they just sloppy?]
Okay, so John’s version is actually quite different from most. He says that they were at the house of Mary and Martha after Lazarus’ resurrection, while Matthew and Mark put them at the house of Simon the Leper, and just say “a woman came” and poured the expensive perfume on Jesus, and then
When the disciples [emphasis mine] saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. “This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.”Interestingly, both those versions follow immediately with Judas leaving to go the chief priests to betray Jesus.
Aware of this, Jesus said to them, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor will always be with you, but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. I tell you the truth, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her.”
Matthew 26: 8-13 (Mark 14:4-9 is almost identical)
"this film tells the story of the final 6 days in the life of Jesus Christ"
Someone tell me how that “6 days” was figured out. John follows the annointing at Bethany with the Hosanna riding into Jerusalem (Whoa, how did i forget that he rode into Jerusalem? I’ve even heard sermons on the bit about him sending the disciples to get a donkey. Needless to say, in the movie he walks, which admittedly makes for more of a sense of him being close with the people, just like them, not a king above them, etc.) “The next day” and then there are no further time markers in the incidents that follow except that the Last Supper ends after dark (I was so pissed that Peter’s denials are in broad daylight, because in the Bible Jesus does not just say “Peter, you will deny me 3 times,” but he says “You will deny me 3 times before the cock crows” -- and thinking about it now, in the Bible it is the crowing of the cock that makes him realize what he has done, not the admonishments of Mary, though in the movie that allows him to explain what Bible readers must only infer: that now that Jesus is arrested, everyone associated with him fears for their own lives as well.)
Wow, the conversation the 2 Pharisees have ("And Then We Are Decided/This Jesus Must Die") is actually in the Bible. (John 11:45-53) I never remembered reading that. I just knew that Jesus was usurping the authority of the Pharisees and they were upset and wanted him out of the picture. Who knew that stuff like "For the sake of the nation, this Jesus must die" parallels "You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish" (John 11:49)? [Incidentally, the whole “we need to get Jesus away from the crowds, so we can arrest him without interference” gets i think one line in the movie, but it’s mentioned repeatedly in the various versions of the story in the Bible.]
However, the movie eliminates the part about how Jesus knew his life is in danger and thus laid low. In fact, we start off with Judas worried that they are getting too loud and will be crushed (Hello, “mind your place you uppity Negro”), and then we see everyone hanging out in the desert, and then the Pharisees plotting, and then Jesus out in the open -- followed by the moneychangers in the temple (which follows the triumphal entry in Luke).
"Hey JC, JC you're alright by me."
Wow, could you be more condescending? (Though yes i know it was supposed to be a positive, supportive statement.) Also, is this movie responsible for that whole referring-to-“Jesus Christ”-as-“JC”-thing? (Also, the 70s slang often annoys me in its anachronism, but the people calling Jesus “superstar” has got to be the worst.) There’s somewhere famous i heard something like that.... *Googles* Rocky Horror? *thinks* Yeah, that’s it. [Riff Raff: A decision had to be made. Dr. Scott: You're okay by me.]
Okay, i like that they work in the whole "I tell you, if they keep quiet, the stones will cry out" (Luke 19:40) thing, but damn, Jesus feels angry and mean-spirited to me almost the entire movie, including here.
"Sing me your songs, but not for me alone.
Sing them for yourselves for you are blessed"
Anachronistic as it would be, i was expecting the Sermon on the Mount here (“Blessed are the...”).
"Hey JC, JC won't you die for me?"
Love the freeze-frame there. Great moment.
"Christ you know I love you
Did you see I waved?
I believe in you and God
So tell me that I'm saved."
Great commentary, on at least two levels. Though one of my thoughts was “Well really, all you have to do is believe in Jesus and you are saved” -- and i am stopping myself digressing into my personal opinions on salvation and what the Bible says and all that.
Interesting. 4 different people are focused on during "Simon Zealotes": a black man (Simon -- who borders problematically on the animalistic stereotype of black men), a woman of color, a blond woman, and an old man. Christ was all about the minorities, so i like this subtle attention to detail. But, um, how about casting people who actually look Jewish? Especially for, oh, say, the part of Jesus?
Keep them yelling their devotion,
But add a touch of hate at Rome.
You will rise to a greater power.
We will win ourselves a home.
You will get the power and the glory.
Forever and ever and ever
Oh yeah, because clearly, hate meshes so well with what Jesus was all about. I had to laugh at Simon’s foolishness. And ha, you think you can guarantee Jesus power and glory and everlasting fame with your plans. Did you miss the part where he’s God?
So of course i liked Jesus’ reply:
Neither you, Simon, nor the fifty thousand,"Pilate's Dream" Hmm. Interesting interlude. Definitely helps make him sympathetic. "And then I heard then mentioning my name... and leaving me the blame."
Nor the Romans, nor the Jews,
Nor Judas, nor the twelve,
Nor the priests, nor the scribes,
Nor doomed Jerusalem itself,
Understand what power is,
Understand what glory is,
Understand at all,
Understand at all.
Whee, the temple. I knew what was coming as soon as it started, of course. And hello temple prostitutes. (I was ever so pleased that they included them, not ‘cause it was hot, but because they existed and it helps you understand just how much the people had corrupted the temple. *thinks of conversation she was having with
carpdeus, which is not to say that the situations are exactly comparable, of course*) And whoa, there was a table with a machine gun."My temple should be a house of prayer, But you have made it a den of thieves."
Whoa. First (and only) time Jesus claims Godhood in this movie. Really powerful moment.
Geek who keeps looking stuff up notes that Jesus is quoting the prophets Isaiah (56:7) and Jeremiah (7:11) when he speaks that line.
"Healings" bothered me, because while i understand the frustration of Jesus at constantly being in demand (Mark for instance.. Jesus heals many and then 1:35 “Very early in the morning, while it was still dark, Jesus got up, left the house and went off to a solitary place, where he prayed” or Matthew 8:18 “When Jesus saw the crowd around him, he gave orders to cross to the other side of the lake” -- incidentally, since Jesus is God-incarnate, he’s the ultimate model for Christians, and here he is repeatedly claiming alone time *waves to mommy*) he’s God; he could heal every human being of each and every infirmity in an instant, with no more than a thought. Well, in my theology anyway. The divinity of Christ is of course a point of contention, and people have argued that his powers were limited when he was confined to a fleshly body. Somehow i don’t think the creators of Jesus Christ Superstar were keen to these theological subtleties, however.
Clearly, we needed that love song. Is it because all movies need a love story or because they felt the PC thing to do was to give the one female a larger part? Yes, i’m annoyed because it’s totally superfluous, and though many argue that Mary and Jesus had a sexual relationship, it’s only in the barest of implications in the Bible and is thus really quite irrelevant to this depiction of Jesus’ last days.
Judas: "I have no thought at all about my own reward, I really didn't come here on my own accord! Just don't say I'm damned for all time!"
*remembers Dante’s Inferno [which incidentally, while a great work in many ways, has only the vaguest relation to Scripture]* Oh, the irony.
"Blood Money" was an okay song. I understand that they had to come up with a way to explain his agreeing to betray someone he cared so much about, and you’re essentially making shit up, since no one in the Bible tries to explain why Judas betrayed him (though the earlier quoted piece from John about him being a thief definitely suggests that at least one of the apostles thought Judas was scum) and they made a good go at it, it just didn’t fully work for me.
"Cash on the nail," huh? A Google search reveals this to be an actual phrase. It must have been done on purpose for effect here, given that it’s "blood money" for a crucifixion.
Also, Judas is chased by tanks, and then he’s at the high priests’ place, and then there are airplanes whizzing over him. Wha happa?
The Last Supper is outside? Okay, so it turns out that it is only Mark and Luke who have an “upper room,” and i get that this was the 70s, commune with nature and all that.
I was annoyed that they didn’t do more of the sacred communion ritual (Funny, because Communion isn’t something i usually feel a sacred connection with when i’m actually doing it.) and that instead it’s mostly just Jesus being angry. (Okay, to be fair, if i knew i were gonna be arrested to be crucified that night, betrayed by one of my nearest and dearest, and that another nearest and dearest would thrice deny me before daybreak, i’d be in a bad mood, too, but The Last Supper is one of the most moving occurrences, and they don’t even try to do it justice.)
Look at all my trials and tribulationsHello, drugged out hippies ;)
Sinking in a gentle pool of wine.
Don't disturb me now, I can see the answers
Till this evening is this morning life is fine.
Always hoped that I'd be an apostle.Touché re: the gospel writers (though i admit i smiled at the biting commentary). No one got into the Jesus game for glory and profit, though, not then. You had to leave possessions and family behind to follow him. Jesus was so opposed to material wealth. You didn’t exactly get a retirement fund. That verse is just full of so much crap.
Knew that I could make it if I tried.
Then when we retire, we can write the Gospels,
So they'll all talk about us when we've died.
"Gethsemane (I Only Want to Say)"
Okay, Jesus in the Bible wishes he did not have to drink that bitter cup, but this is the song in which i most strongly feel that the films errs too far toward Jesus-as-man, diminishing Jesus-as-God to the point where i think the writers believed Jesus was a prophet of sorts, was a chosen and willing sacrifice (which, i suppose, is some people’s theology).
But if I die,Put away your sword
See the saga through and do the things you ask of me,
Let them hate me, hit me, hurt me, nail me to their tree.
I'd want to know, I'd want to know, My God,
I'd want to see, I'd want to see, My God,
Why I should die.
Would I be more noticed that I ever was before?
Would the things that I've said and done matter any more?
I have to know, I have to know my Lord,
I'd have to see, I'd have to see, my Lord,
If I die what will be my reward?
I'd have to know, I'd have to know my Lord
Why should I die?
Can you show me now that I would not be killed in vain?
Show me just a little of your omnipresent brain.
Show me there's a reason for you wanting me to die
You're far to keen and where and how, and not so hot on why.
*pouts* I wanted Peter to cut off the centurion’s ear and have “He who lives by the sword, dies the by sword.”
Why are you obsessed with fighting?
Stick to fishing from now on.
As she whispers, “I will make you Fishers of Men.”
Herod, um, wow, he’s trippy. And of course, we remember that Herod has wanted Jesus dead since his birth, and he nicely
There’s definitely some desperation in Herod’s final running after Jesus, "Get out of my life!" and i felt at some moments during the song like he wanted to believe, wanted Jesus to prove he was God (i thought of the temptations of Christ in the desert here). And actually, it’s not so clear in the movie, but in the Bible, Pilate sends Jesus to Herod, and Herod sends him back; Herod will not convict him. (There are really no secular charges against him, but it’s heavily implied that no one wants to kill him, either. I did not reread all 4 gospels in full tonight, so i can’t speak about the specifics of the legalities of the whole thing.)
Okay, so when they push Jesus down the slope into the white sand (and he’s wearing socks, what up?) i thought they were just gonna skip to the post-Crucifixion, and i was pissed, because it loses so much of its power if you don’t see it (though i’ve gotta say, interesting choice seeing the flashes of Passion paintings during Gethsemane) but then it turns out he just got beaten up by the mob. Does that even happen in the Bible? I suppose perhaps it’s implied.
My God! I saw him. He looked three-quarters dead!And then when we next see him in front of Pilate he has not a mark on him. Good to know someone was monitoring the continuity in this film. *sighs*
And he was so bad I had to turn my head.
You beat him so hard that he was bent and lame,
And I know who everybody's going to blame
I don't know how to love him.Clearly, the reason to have Mary’s song, was so that Judas could echo it, because they are they OTP ;)
I don't know why he moves me.
He's a man. He's just a man.
He is not a King. He is just the same
As any one I know.
He scares me so!
When he's cold and dead will he let me be?
Does he love me too? Does he care for me?
I saw the tree and thought “Judas Tree” and then thought “What does that mean? How do i know that?” I had totally forgotten that Judas hangs himself. [Matthew actually talks at length about Judas after the betrayal, 27:1-10] And who immortalized that image of the “Judas Tree” anyway? I’m guessing a Renaissance painter, but perhaps it is more modern.
And we’re back to Pilate. You could tell he didn’t want Jesus’ blood on his hands that first time around. He seemed a bit more schizophrenic this time around. (Also, i wanted to see the Barabbas scene. Interestingly, they included “We have no king but Caesar,” which i didn’t even know was part of the happenings until i saw it in my Bible tonight -- John 19:15.)
Also, reading the Biblical accounts... while a bit of a neat rhetorical trick, JCS totally undermines what the Bible says Jesus was, by having him keeping doing that “Your words, not mine” bit, but in the Bible he keeps saying “Yes, it is as you say” -- to the Sanhedrin’s question “Are you the Christ, the Son of God?” (Matthew 26:63-64 and Mark 14:61-62 are almost identical, and then there’s Luke 22:70 which is a little different, and then John is heavily different) and to Pilate’s question “Are you the King of the Jews?” (Matthew 27:11 and Mark 15:2 are almost identical, and then there’s Luke 23:3 which is a little different, and then John is heavily different).
"I have no kingdom in the world I'm through. There may be a kingdom for me somewhere. If I only knew." Again, far too doubting a Christ for me.
Pontius Pilate: "And what is 'truth'? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths. Are mine the same as yours?"
Huh. Interesting. (Personally, i think truth is different from law, and while people may have different truths, i believe in an ultimate Truth.) [Interestingly, John does report (18:37-38) Judas asking “What is truth?” after Jesus says “Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.”]
Ew, flogging [which i also didn’t remember from the Bible, and which only Matthew and Mark report]. And silent Jesus. I half-expected a single tear like in Glory(?). Whoa, and then Jesus rolls over, onto the sand. That’s gotta sting. Nice touch with Pilate’s bloody hands, the realization is well acted, well directed, and then the literal washing of the hands.
PILATEI prefer the original “You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin.” (John 19:11). The Bible emphasizes a lot more that it was all planned, that it had to happen the way it did (Jesus frequently says that he could ask his Father to send a legion to save him, but he won’t ask), and i suppose in the movie we are supposed to know that the people saying Jesus made mistakes are wrong, but i’m not sure. I mean, there are the caricature people along the street ["Tell me Christ how you feel tonight. / Do you plan to put up a fight? / Do you feel that you've had the breaks? / What would you say were your big mistakes? / Do you think you may retire? / Did you think you would get much higher? / How do you view your coming trial? / Have your men proved at all worth while?"], but Mary and Peter also sing "Could We Start Again Please?" I know Mary and Peter are wrong, but i’m not sure if the viewer is supposed to think that.
Why do you not speak when I have your life in my hands?
How can you stay quiet? I don't believe you understand.
JESUS
You have nothing in your hands.
Any power you have comes to you from far beyond.
Everything is fixed. and you can't change it.
"Why'd you choose such a backwards time in such a strange land?"
Um, Roman Empire? Pretty influential if you ask me.
Oh, Judas symbolizes the modern (1970s) era. No wonder he was a in a pink jumpsuit when everyone else was in period clothing. I had been confused by that.
I’m still not sure what it’s all supposed to mean. Judas was associated with modernity and he was responsible for the downfall of Jesus, but he gets driven to the Pharisees by tanks... i’m confused.
God, forgive them, for they don't know what they're doing.
Who is my mother? Where is my mother?
My God! My God, why have you forgotten me?
I am thirsty
It is finished.
Father, into your hands I commend my spirit.
All i recall from the movie is that first line -- the only spoken line in the whole thing, but he was mumbling softly, so maybe i just missed it. They seem to have combined all the reported words of the crucified Christ and meshed them together.
So, the soundtrack has as a last track, "John Nineteen: Forty One."
Interestingly, my Bible says “At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid,” for that verse, but i don’t really remember him getting laid in a tomb at the end of the film (though i do like the sunset behind the empty cross).
AND AGAIN, NO RESURRECTION. THIS IS NO GOOD! THE RESURRECTION IS KEY!
Okay, well at least the kids on the bus makes a nice frame. And i guess it’s an interesting idea, modern people going back to watch, to live, the time of Jesus.
I don’t actually like any of the songs in this i don’t think. And Jesus has this annoying high pitch when he yells.
Also, it was all filmed in Israel. I am turning into my father’s daughter, because i realized watching it that it couldn’t have been filmed in the U.S., because we don’t have rocks that look like that. (Also, um, i saw sand getting kicked up a lot, and yet no one was ever dusty. Even when they looked sweaty/oiled.)
This entry got delayed because i was talking about the film with
lilithchilde, which led to talking religion, and two and a half hours later.... ;) I know there’s plenty in here that we didn’t talk about, so feel free to take issue with stuff and we can argue again :)
another first part
I may note things that we've covered, however, in cases where I want to nod emphatically. Just because there are a few of those that made me really happy.
Definitely problematic -- unless Judas is one of many black men, and not the darkest one in the room. And a blonde Jesus just makes me want to gag every time.
Plays on the blonde is Good mythology ... and I'm sure Jesus would not want to encourage that way of thinking, since he generally took the underdog point of view.
Oh, yes indeed. This is just how I feel. As I noted at Haymarket today, the blond Jesus thing really really rubs me the wrong way . . . I just haven't been paying too much attention to it because it's a movie thing, and the movie isn't my authority on the play.
Went over the perfume comment in my responses above.
The idea that Jesus keeps him around even though he is the greatest of sinners is certainly in character for God -- David sinned big time, as did all the Biblical biggies. God uses the wounded -- not the proud.
Hmmm, that makes some sense. This bit with "the wounded, not the proud" is something I've always found particularily interesting about the god of the Bible. Sometimes I like it, sometimes I find it strange, but certainly it's worth noting. However, I can't help but wonder if Judas' portrayal in the gospels is overdone . . . I mean, the gospels were written after it was all over, right? And I doubt that the apostles would have wanted to paint the betrayer in a good light. So, I can't 100% trust that Judas was an entirely awful person. Admittedly I'm biased towards my own conception, but I distrust the one-sided-ness. (I should note that I really need to go back and read the pertinent bits of narrative, as I didn't remember the "thief" bit at all until it was mentioned here.)
As for the denials-in-daylight bit . . . here's another point where I shrug and say, it's the movie and the movie is weird and not my JCS.
That's Daddy's general take on Jesus overall -- arrogant etc. He certainly was a thorn in durn near everyone's side. EXCEPT the poor and beat down (including women), whom he honore.
Hmm. I've never seen the Jesus in JCS as being mean-spirited, exactly: just warn down and hurting, and lashing out a bit. I can't really blame him. As for your father's take, well, I guess I can see that, though I guess I wrote off most of Jesus' arrogance as him believing he's the Son of God. I suppose it's logical for him to be a little arrogant in that case, though it's also odd because he's always painted as so filled with humility. I must think on this.
Tis great commentary. The crowd, and people in general, aren't REALLY followers. More like groupies. *Hey God, I said the magic words*
Yes, yes, yes. Exactly.
So of course i liked Jesus’ reply:
Neither you ... / Understand at all,
I think it portrays Jesus' sadness. One one understands his real message (except maybe the women :) Everyone thinks in worldly terms of power and glory, and no one *gets* God or Jesus (Behold, the kingdom is within you, for example).
They have no clue what Jesus is about, and it saddens him because he loves them.
Oh, totally with that. Poor guy. I see him this way in the play: sad, weary. This is why I was so shocked by the writing off of the character as "mean-spirited" . . . I find him incredibly sympathetic and just right. I want to give Jesus a hug. ;)
and its second
Ohhhhh, may I have permission to read that? Please?
I feel like the love thing between Jesus/Mary is detracting from the important stuff. And also, couldn't Mary be a disciple in equal standing? Historically, I feel like making her his lover demeans her position.
While I don't think that the idea of this love takes away from the important stuff, I have been conflicted about this last bit. It is a shame that she couldn't just be recognized as an equal disciple, and though I sort of like the idea that Jesus might have experienced romantic or sexual love--it humanizes him, and you know that's a good thing for me--I also do feel that it could be seen as demeaning her, and this makes me fret. However, I find it difficult to imagine that she was allowed to be a regular and equal disciple, given the times. Really must read some of that recent research on the subject. (This discussion has extended my booklist quite a bit.)
My understanding (I'm not doing any research for this commentary)
is that Judas expected a King, and Jesus wasn't going along. Judas was acting for the *greater good* as he understood it. But then he is tragically wrong.
Oh, good, I hope this is right. This would fit my conception very nicely, but I definitely don't have the research to back it up by now. (I very stubbornly insist that Judas' intentions were not simple, pure evil.)
Hello, drugged out hippies ;)
No kidding :) Again, I think it demeans the moment in a way. The poignancy of the whole event is that JESUS knows what is coming. He is the only one who knows this is the LAST time they will share this meal together.
Hmm. I can see this, though I've always liked the portrayal of the disciples, since I see it as a commentary on some current followers and rather telling. You know: satisfied to mooch glory, or something.
This is spoken as the human-human Jesus. The incarnate Son of God, who was both human and divine, went thru the cruxification on FAITH. I believe he was crucified knowing he was fullfilling his Father's will, but not knowing the way you know the sun wil come up. His was the knowing of faith -- which is a powerful thing, and terrifying.
*nod, nod* I'd also like to submit that even the "best" (those with greatest faith) question and doubt, especially when their very lives are on the line. I know the Bible doesn't like to admit this, but it's human after all. It seems natural to me that Jesus would be afraid and would struggle and even need to lash out at God a little bit. He knows . . . but not the kind of solid knowing that you get from more physical/non-faith-based certainties.
Covered the Resurrection contention--one of my biggest issues in this discussion--above.
I get the sense (I can't really remember) that your perception is correct -- that JCS is about a very human Jesus, not about his divinity.
Oh indeed. Which is much of why I love it so, as you know. I continue to submit that this doesn't necessarily deny Godhood, however. It just doesn't confirm it, either. Leaves it open. And yes, yes, I'm repeating myself. Maybe we're actually done.
more from elizabeth's mommy
(Anonymous) 2004-01-14 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)This could go on forever, eh?
BYW, I realized today that I don't think I've ever actually SEEN JCS, but I used to listen to the album, learned various songs, and especially loved "I Don't Know How to Love Him."
Anyway...
About Judas -- I was once told that the gospels said more about the authors than about Jesus. And the mythology of Judas as Evil was no doubt intentional. Yet, things I've heard (sorry for not having the time or energy to research) lead me to think that Judas was tragically mistaken, but not really evil at all. Of course, much of the horror of human history was more tragic than evil, but that's another topic entirely.
About Jesus as Arrogant -- I remember arguing with the male parental that if you really ARE the Son of God, it isn't arrogant to act like it :)
I really iked your comment about wanting to give Jesus a hug.
My sermon may be disappointing -- but I may be inspired to actually write the essay I thought I had already written (I feel rather strongly about it), in which case I'll send it to the Beloved Daughter to share.
As to the faith/doubt, Jesus' human doubting comes out in "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" If Jesus, the closest human ever to God, felt forsaken at his weakest point, I guess the rest of humanity can be forgiven. The power of his sacrifice is that he felt forsaken, and yet was still obedient to God's will. He didn't let his feelings get in the way of what he knew thru faith. I find that a powerful example.
I think that's it !
It's fun to think thru things with you guys -- my own community has gone in rather a different and disturbing (to me) direction. I'm a big fan of honest questioning.
Re: more from elizabeth's mommy
It's just one of those topics. *laughs* Unfortunately, I've run out of energy for the timebeing.
Yet, things I've heard (sorry for not having the time or energy to research) lead me to think that Judas was tragically mistaken, but not really evil at all. Of course, much of the horror of human history was more tragic than evil, but that's another topic entirely.
*nodnod* Well, one concept I've always found difficult to swallow is the idea that any human being can just simply be evil. That's too one-sided, people just aren't like that. Judas to me is absolutely a tragic figure. (Of course, that I can relate to him--at least as he is portrayed in JCS--has nothing to do with my overt sympathy. ;))
About Jesus as Arrogant -- I remember arguing with the male parental that if you really ARE the Son of God, it isn't arrogant to act like it :)
Heh, and you do have a point, though everything I was taught growing up pointed to Jesus being so good that he wasn't ever arrogant as he understandably could have been: something that isn't exactly backed up all the time in the Bible. (Also, of course, there's the fact that such an attitude can rub those of us who aren't believers the wrong way, which is I believe why the issue was brought up in this conversation. It's yet another thing that comes down to whether or not you believe in Jesus-as-God, which was the stopping point for most of Elizabeth and my mini-discussions. Once you get to that point, well, you have to acknowledge your fundamental differences and let be, I think.)
My sermon may be disappointing -- but I may be inspired to actually write the essay I thought I had already written (I feel rather strongly about it), in which case I'll send it to the Beloved Daughter to share.
Thank you. :)
The power of his sacrifice is that he felt forsaken, and yet was still obedient to God's will. He didn't let his feelings get in the way of what he knew thru faith. I find that a powerful example.
Although I'm not really much of a "faith" person, in the same sense, I agree that it is powerful. This is what I was trying to get at in my defense of the song "Gethsemene" from JCS: Jesus doubts and fears, quite drastically in fact. But in the end, he does go through with it, because despite his feelings he knew he had to.
If Jesus hadn't been afraid, his sacrifice just wouldn't have meant as much. It isn't a sacrifice if you don't lose something! His fear was a very human thing, and this is, after all, the very point of the story: that God became human and showed the humans how it was done.
Hee, I'm an odd atheist. Aren't I supposed to be harboring bitterness? Nah. It's a great story. One of the greatest, or it wouldn't have lasted so long, and continue to.
It's fun to think thru things with you guys -- my own community has gone in rather a different and disturbing (to me) direction. I'm a big fan of honest questioning.
Thank you. I really enjoyed your contributions, so thank you for them, as well. :)
Re: more from elizabeth's mommy
We've also pretty much exhausted the topic. We've reached lots of "agree to disagree" points and found many "Ooh, this is something interesting to research" topics.
[[ About Jesus as Arrogant -- I remember arguing with the male parental that if you really ARE the Son of God, it isn't arrogant to act like it :)
Heh, and you do have a point, though everything I was taught growing up pointed to Jesus being so good that he wasn't ever arrogant as he understandably could have been: something that isn't exactly backed up all the time in the Bible. ]]
Good points all.
Also, of course, there's the fact that such an attitude can rub those of us who aren't believers the wrong way, which is I believe why the issue was brought up in this conversation.
Yeah. I think there's a very fine line separating the acceptable/palatable and the un-acceptable/palatable ways of acting like one is all that and a bag of chips, even if one really is all that. Where Jesus' behavior fits on that continuum is something we both need to do far more research into before we can have a discussion.
It's yet another thing that comes down to whether or not you believe in Jesus-as-God, which was the stopping point for most of Elizabeth and my mini-discussions. Once you get to that point, well, you have to acknowledge your fundamental differences and let be, I think.
As we have established, we are all big fans of realizing when one has reached an agree-to-disagree point, and honoring that. :)
If Jesus hadn't been afraid, his sacrifice just wouldn't have meant as much. It isn't a sacrifice if you don't lose something!
That's a REALLY good point and one that i don't think had ever really occurred to me before.
after all, the very point of the story: that God became human and showed the humans how it was done.
*grins* LOVE you!