Also, I do think that many of the people who waved palm fronds to welcom Jesus into Jerusalem, only to call for his excecution days later, could be said to be such fair-weather followers.
Point taken.
to follow your argument backwards: we know about him, because people kept records and preached his message, and therefore he rose from the dead like he said he was going to.
Point taken. I guess my thought process is that if his followers didn't believe he rose from the dead, then they would have had reason to doubt everything else he said and would likely not have been committed to spreading his message, especially given the risks (though of course this is debateable). (From a PR point of view, much better idea to say "I'm a prophet, hear me speak," than "I am the Son of God; I will die and rise again" as the latter isn't gonna give you any lasting staying power unless you're for real.)
I have interesting See Sharp Press stuff about cannibalism, hallucinogens, paganism, and early Christianity. One of these days i will do enough additional research to write about that.
Plenty of people have not come back from the dead, and yet we remember what they said, and they had huge effects on civilization!
Point taken. But none of them claimed to be anything more than human. Either Jesus was God or he was a raving loony. If someone claims to be from Mars and also says a lot of other stuff that you agree with, you may spread the stuff you believe, but you certainly aren't gonna go around telling people "This guy from Mars told me this stuff. No really. You have to believe me that he was from Mars."
I guess i keep thinking that the original followers could have edited out the part about Jesus being the Messiah, that they could have rewritten it so he was just a prophet. Sure it would have been risky, and they probably would have been branded as heretics... but that's not so different from what happened to them anyway. Would Jesus' words have been preserved if he were just another heretic? There must be stuff written about what it would have cost the disciples to do it differently than they did. (Whether i can find it is of course another matter.) I suspect my father may have some thoughts on this.
As for Jesus, he had some great things to say, some really poignant things that affected people, and also that built upon and were tied to religious traditions that had already lasted for thousands of years. True, this didn't guarantee that he'd be remembered, but part of that is just, in my opinion, the chances of history. He was powerful, and his followers were loyal (or some of them), and he was remembered. The things he said were strong enough that they eventually took over much of the world, in fact. It's the crazy way the world works: things can grow, from one man to a multitude.
Again with the good points.
As for your thoughts on a search for some sort of historical proof of the Resurrection, well, I totally validate them. I don't really think such proof is possible (or would be, even if I thought the event had actually occurred): if it was, I think the thousands of years' worth of study and worship would have managed before now.
Clearly. I know there has been research done, there must be. I will indeed let you know when i find it, probably after i have devoured it. (There's also the fact that Jesus is claimed to have raised others from the dead, which i'm sure probably has no textual evidence besides the gospels.)
yes, wrapping up, because we're moving into territory far beyond the scope of this thread
Point taken.
to follow your argument backwards: we know about him, because people kept records and preached his message, and therefore he rose from the dead like he said he was going to.
Point taken. I guess my thought process is that if his followers didn't believe he rose from the dead, then they would have had reason to doubt everything else he said and would likely not have been committed to spreading his message, especially given the risks (though of course this is debateable). (From a PR point of view, much better idea to say "I'm a prophet, hear me speak," than "I am the Son of God; I will die and rise again" as the latter isn't gonna give you any lasting staying power unless you're for real.)
I have interesting See Sharp Press stuff about cannibalism, hallucinogens, paganism, and early Christianity. One of these days i will do enough additional research to write about that.
Plenty of people have not come back from the dead, and yet we remember what they said, and they had huge effects on civilization!
Point taken. But none of them claimed to be anything more than human. Either Jesus was God or he was a raving loony. If someone claims to be from Mars and also says a lot of other stuff that you agree with, you may spread the stuff you believe, but you certainly aren't gonna go around telling people "This guy from Mars told me this stuff. No really. You have to believe me that he was from Mars."
I guess i keep thinking that the original followers could have edited out the part about Jesus being the Messiah, that they could have rewritten it so he was just a prophet. Sure it would have been risky, and they probably would have been branded as heretics... but that's not so different from what happened to them anyway. Would Jesus' words have been preserved if he were just another heretic? There must be stuff written about what it would have cost the disciples to do it differently than they did. (Whether i can find it is of course another matter.) I suspect my father may have some thoughts on this.
As for Jesus, he had some great things to say, some really poignant things that affected people, and also that built upon and were tied to religious traditions that had already lasted for thousands of years. True, this didn't guarantee that he'd be remembered, but part of that is just, in my opinion, the chances of history. He was powerful, and his followers were loyal (or some of them), and he was remembered. The things he said were strong enough that they eventually took over much of the world, in fact. It's the crazy way the world works: things can grow, from one man to a multitude.
Again with the good points.
As for your thoughts on a search for some sort of historical proof of the Resurrection, well, I totally validate them. I don't really think such proof is possible (or would be, even if I thought the event had actually occurred): if it was, I think the thousands of years' worth of study and worship would have managed before now.
Clearly. I know there has been research done, there must be. I will indeed let you know when i find it, probably after i have devoured it. (There's also the fact that Jesus is claimed to have raised others from the dead, which i'm sure probably has no textual evidence besides the gospels.)