I totally say "YOU GUYS!" when I'm all inarticulate flappy-hands. Ari and I have talked about this some, about how it is often really hard to come up with alternative language, even when we think the language we're using is problematic.
I'm not sure I'd ever thought about "you guys" being problematic until one night after church one of our lay leaders said to one of our seminary interns: "I noticed that in your Children's Time you used the phrase 'you guys' multiple times in talking to the children" [who consisted of two little girls].
I think one thing liberals (incl. liberal churches) sometimes elide is that everything is going to make SOMEONE uncomfortable -- and we have to be okay with that; we have to acknowledge and recognize that, and make a real decision about whether we think specific people's discomfort trumps whatever it is that we're trying to do with that thing that makes these people uncomfortable.
At the Just Worship workshop at Convo, a woman mentioned that while she understands the reasons for changing the language of some of the old hymns, when you change the words they're not longer the same hymns and that makes her sad/uncomfortable/I forget what term she used exactly. Later in the workshop, one of the facilitators said (speaking broadly, but clearly having the woman's earlier comment particularly in mind), that sometimes we have to give up our privilege when other people are being hurt. (The facilitator worried privately that she had been too harsh and actually talked to the woman afterward -- who said no, she really needed to hear that.) That really stuck with me -- though I would personally be really hesitant to phrase it so boldly to anyone.
And I definitely agree with you that there's a continuum, that not all hurts are equal. I think there's a certain problem with relativizing -- of placating ourselves that it's okay that we do xyz because at least we don't do abc -- but I also think it would be a problem to tell people that the fact that they don't do abc doesn't count just because they still do xyz.
And I definitely want people to think about and understand WHY it is that people find certain language hurtful (or whatever the situation is), to not just say/do or not say/do certain things because that's what Good Liberals do.
One of my things recently (re: church, but it's broadly applicable) has been: "What do we believe -- and why? And how do we live that out?" I think all three components of that are important.
And yes, we can definitely talk about this over dinner next week.
Thank you for being honest and thoughtful. I love that you're doing that thing that I do where you pushback against what it is that you're saying as you're saying it, and I'm glad that you know that you can push back against what I'm saying.
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I'm not sure I'd ever thought about "you guys" being problematic until one night after church one of our lay leaders said to one of our seminary interns: "I noticed that in your Children's Time you used the phrase 'you guys' multiple times in talking to the children" [who consisted of two little girls].
I think one thing liberals (incl. liberal churches) sometimes elide is that everything is going to make SOMEONE uncomfortable -- and we have to be okay with that; we have to acknowledge and recognize that, and make a real decision about whether we think specific people's discomfort trumps whatever it is that we're trying to do with that thing that makes these people uncomfortable.
At the Just Worship workshop at Convo, a woman mentioned that while she understands the reasons for changing the language of some of the old hymns, when you change the words they're not longer the same hymns and that makes her sad/uncomfortable/I forget what term she used exactly. Later in the workshop, one of the facilitators said (speaking broadly, but clearly having the woman's earlier comment particularly in mind), that sometimes we have to give up our privilege when other people are being hurt. (The facilitator worried privately that she had been too harsh and actually talked to the woman afterward -- who said no, she really needed to hear that.) That really stuck with me -- though I would personally be really hesitant to phrase it so boldly to anyone.
And I definitely agree with you that there's a continuum, that not all hurts are equal. I think there's a certain problem with relativizing -- of placating ourselves that it's okay that we do xyz because at least we don't do abc -- but I also think it would be a problem to tell people that the fact that they don't do abc doesn't count just because they still do xyz.
And I definitely want people to think about and understand WHY it is that people find certain language hurtful (or whatever the situation is), to not just say/do or not say/do certain things because that's what Good Liberals do.
One of my things recently (re: church, but it's broadly applicable) has been: "What do we believe -- and why? And how do we live that out?" I think all three components of that are important.
And yes, we can definitely talk about this over dinner next week.
Thank you for being honest and thoughtful. I love that you're doing that thing that I do where you pushback against what it is that you're saying as you're saying it, and I'm glad that you know that you can push back against what I'm saying.