You and I have had this conversation before, but you have yet again managed to hit a button I didn't know I had w/r/t language choices. Because just when I think I've gotten on board with your argument about "lame," then you have to go and take on "you guys" and I just don't know.
And actually I think this is tied to a larger issue, because what it comes down to is feeling like what we (well, you and I, and the thinky-type people we know) are trying to do is find a balance between being treating other people with respect on the one hand, and maintaining culture on the other hand. On the respect side, I get that "you guys" is not a gender-neutral means of addressing a group, and I get that it, combined with other things, helps to perpetuate masculinity as the norm, etc. On the other hand, I feel like "you guys" is my culture. It's my idiom, it's part of me. Because how I speak is part of me, and it's rooted in the place I grew up and the books I've read and the communities I've been a part of.
And obviously there are plenty of people who would make the same case about "that's so gay" or whatever, so obviously saying "it's my culture" isn't a blanket pass to get past any other arguments. But I think it is a matter of degree, surely, and somehow "you guys" is feeling like it's way down at one end of the continuum, with "that's gay" at the other end, and "lame" somewhere in the middle.
I guess the other thing I feel is that it seems like there is an impression I get in situations like this (not from you, and I know you know what I mean here), an impression that there is a list of words that the community has deemed to be "not okay" and that there is no point at which one person's culture can be as important as the concerns of respect. And I guess I disagree with that because I feel like maybe we each of us have to find where the balance stands for ourselves. Not just, obviously, that we have to decide whether or not we agree with the community assessment, but maybe more like we have a moral imperative to decide for ourselves instead of agreeing with the community assessment.
Maybe what I'm saying is that I think there can be value in exclusivity, and in a culture that makes some people uncomfortable. Which, not that this necessarily applies to your statement, because it's about what you value in a church, so if you value community and welcoming and inclusiveness, then that's what you value.
Anyway, still turning this over in my head. Maybe we can talk about this next week?
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Date: 2009-10-22 02:35 am (UTC)And actually I think this is tied to a larger issue, because what it comes down to is feeling like what we (well, you and I, and the thinky-type people we know) are trying to do is find a balance between being treating other people with respect on the one hand, and maintaining culture on the other hand. On the respect side, I get that "you guys" is not a gender-neutral means of addressing a group, and I get that it, combined with other things, helps to perpetuate masculinity as the norm, etc. On the other hand, I feel like "you guys" is my culture. It's my idiom, it's part of me. Because how I speak is part of me, and it's rooted in the place I grew up and the books I've read and the communities I've been a part of.
And obviously there are plenty of people who would make the same case about "that's so gay" or whatever, so obviously saying "it's my culture" isn't a blanket pass to get past any other arguments. But I think it is a matter of degree, surely, and somehow "you guys" is feeling like it's way down at one end of the continuum, with "that's gay" at the other end, and "lame" somewhere in the middle.
I guess the other thing I feel is that it seems like there is an impression I get in situations like this (not from you, and I know you know what I mean here), an impression that there is a list of words that the community has deemed to be "not okay" and that there is no point at which one person's culture can be as important as the concerns of respect. And I guess I disagree with that because I feel like maybe we each of us have to find where the balance stands for ourselves. Not just, obviously, that we have to decide whether or not we agree with the community assessment, but maybe more like we have a moral imperative to decide for ourselves instead of agreeing with the community assessment.
Maybe what I'm saying is that I think there can be value in exclusivity, and in a culture that makes some people uncomfortable. Which, not that this necessarily applies to your statement, because it's about what you value in a church, so if you value community and welcoming and inclusiveness, then that's what you value.
Anyway, still turning this over in my head. Maybe we can talk about this next week?