This could go on forever, eh? It's just one of those topics. *laughs* Unfortunately, I've run out of energy for the timebeing.
Yet, things I've heard (sorry for not having the time or energy to research) lead me to think that Judas was tragically mistaken, but not really evil at all. Of course, much of the horror of human history was more tragic than evil, but that's another topic entirely. *nodnod* Well, one concept I've always found difficult to swallow is the idea that any human being can just simply be evil. That's too one-sided, people just aren't like that. Judas to me is absolutely a tragic figure. (Of course, that I can relate to him--at least as he is portrayed in JCS--has nothing to do with my overt sympathy. ;))
About Jesus as Arrogant -- I remember arguing with the male parental that if you really ARE the Son of God, it isn't arrogant to act like it :) Heh, and you do have a point, though everything I was taught growing up pointed to Jesus being so good that he wasn't ever arrogant as he understandably could have been: something that isn't exactly backed up all the time in the Bible. (Also, of course, there's the fact that such an attitude can rub those of us who aren't believers the wrong way, which is I believe why the issue was brought up in this conversation. It's yet another thing that comes down to whether or not you believe in Jesus-as-God, which was the stopping point for most of Elizabeth and my mini-discussions. Once you get to that point, well, you have to acknowledge your fundamental differences and let be, I think.)
My sermon may be disappointing -- but I may be inspired to actually write the essay I thought I had already written (I feel rather strongly about it), in which case I'll send it to the Beloved Daughter to share. Thank you. :)
The power of his sacrifice is that he felt forsaken, and yet was still obedient to God's will. He didn't let his feelings get in the way of what he knew thru faith. I find that a powerful example. Although I'm not really much of a "faith" person, in the same sense, I agree that it is powerful. This is what I was trying to get at in my defense of the song "Gethsemene" from JCS: Jesus doubts and fears, quite drastically in fact. But in the end, he does go through with it, because despite his feelings he knew he had to.
If Jesus hadn't been afraid, his sacrifice just wouldn't have meant as much. It isn't a sacrifice if you don't lose something! His fear was a very human thing, and this is, after all, the very point of the story: that God became human and showed the humans how it was done.
Hee, I'm an odd atheist. Aren't I supposed to be harboring bitterness? Nah. It's a great story. One of the greatest, or it wouldn't have lasted so long, and continue to.
It's fun to think thru things with you guys -- my own community has gone in rather a different and disturbing (to me) direction. I'm a big fan of honest questioning. Thank you. I really enjoyed your contributions, so thank you for them, as well. :)
Re: more from elizabeth's mommy
It's just one of those topics. *laughs* Unfortunately, I've run out of energy for the timebeing.
Yet, things I've heard (sorry for not having the time or energy to research) lead me to think that Judas was tragically mistaken, but not really evil at all. Of course, much of the horror of human history was more tragic than evil, but that's another topic entirely.
*nodnod* Well, one concept I've always found difficult to swallow is the idea that any human being can just simply be evil. That's too one-sided, people just aren't like that. Judas to me is absolutely a tragic figure. (Of course, that I can relate to him--at least as he is portrayed in JCS--has nothing to do with my overt sympathy. ;))
About Jesus as Arrogant -- I remember arguing with the male parental that if you really ARE the Son of God, it isn't arrogant to act like it :)
Heh, and you do have a point, though everything I was taught growing up pointed to Jesus being so good that he wasn't ever arrogant as he understandably could have been: something that isn't exactly backed up all the time in the Bible. (Also, of course, there's the fact that such an attitude can rub those of us who aren't believers the wrong way, which is I believe why the issue was brought up in this conversation. It's yet another thing that comes down to whether or not you believe in Jesus-as-God, which was the stopping point for most of Elizabeth and my mini-discussions. Once you get to that point, well, you have to acknowledge your fundamental differences and let be, I think.)
My sermon may be disappointing -- but I may be inspired to actually write the essay I thought I had already written (I feel rather strongly about it), in which case I'll send it to the Beloved Daughter to share.
Thank you. :)
The power of his sacrifice is that he felt forsaken, and yet was still obedient to God's will. He didn't let his feelings get in the way of what he knew thru faith. I find that a powerful example.
Although I'm not really much of a "faith" person, in the same sense, I agree that it is powerful. This is what I was trying to get at in my defense of the song "Gethsemene" from JCS: Jesus doubts and fears, quite drastically in fact. But in the end, he does go through with it, because despite his feelings he knew he had to.
If Jesus hadn't been afraid, his sacrifice just wouldn't have meant as much. It isn't a sacrifice if you don't lose something! His fear was a very human thing, and this is, after all, the very point of the story: that God became human and showed the humans how it was done.
Hee, I'm an odd atheist. Aren't I supposed to be harboring bitterness? Nah. It's a great story. One of the greatest, or it wouldn't have lasted so long, and continue to.
It's fun to think thru things with you guys -- my own community has gone in rather a different and disturbing (to me) direction. I'm a big fan of honest questioning.
Thank you. I really enjoyed your contributions, so thank you for them, as well. :)